From: Vikki Riley <riley.vikki-AT-gmail.com>
Date: 02 Feb 2010 15:22:16 UTC   (11:22:16 AM in author's locale)
To: Situationist <situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org>

FM

Thank you for this reply. Phobia (senza F in inglese) is accurate.
Joseph Fritzl was not an arab.
Re your comments on Turkey of course you are right and this is an
interesting way to look at it. There's a show I watch on TV about the
trade routes of the Venetian empire and they trace the Christian
crusader colonisation of Croatia, Greek islands and then
Constantinople. The narrator searches every port of call for the Leone
d'Oro on buildings, ships and civic staues.

with a statue of the Madonna in my hand ready, Vikki

On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Free Mod <freemod-AT-free.fr> wrote:
>
> Vikki
>
> I just preferred to pass over but I didn't mean the subject deserves to be dropped. Thanks for the hint.
>  The (arab?) fobia in IS words is just blatantly obvious. Of course, in the perspective of those scared ones, the "raped daughter" is the best way to persuade themselves and others of the necessity to support death penalty. Besides the fact that proportional justice, retributive justice and justice as deterrent are not exactly sensible concepts to a SI list (and here we should send a dedicated mail to the initiator of this thread), I also find in IS words a need to justify violence in any way. After having tried with "history" and "human chemistry" IS resorts to "revolution". Then I would prefer somebody simply to be violent 'cause cultural processes that tried supporting violence through ideologies had always produced results that appeared worst than starting points. I do believe that death penalty decision is not about the "right" to take or not to take other people lives. It is to be refused just because violence is to be for ever dismissed as possible tool for social change. Violence will never change anything.
>
> As for the Turkey to come into the EC, to me it's a good thing because it would help to mitigate contrasts and conflictual positions with a world (the variegated and multicolored Islam) that is not so far and different from our (?) world. Islam has always been part of Europe, especially from a cultural point of view, and Europe is not just a matter of christian roots... crap! Do we want to say that the Ottoman Empire was not Europe? And the millions muslims who always lived here? I am always surprised when I hear somebody speaking, for instance, of Prague as east european town. Then also Wien should be considered eastern. That's central Europe, Mittel Europe. The same discourse for Turkey, even if its geographical position is easter than Czech Republic but often considered part of the Balkans. By the way, let it be part of EC. It also might help to cancel death penalty and to solve the Cyprus issue. Nevertheless, I guess that the step will not be done but for economical purposes.
>
> FM
>
>
>
> Il giorno 01/feb/2010, alle ore 03.00, Vikki Riley ha scritto:
>
>> Infinid....
>> A quote from your latest manifesto for living:
>>
>> "3. When someone kidnaps your daughter, rapes her, and then sells her
>> to an Arab as a sex slave, the we'll see whether you support the death
>> penalty or not."
>>
>> You're a father I presume. With paranoid ideas about Arab men. In
>> Victorian times guys like you just kept their daughters indoors,
>> tatting or if you were lucky, writing Wuthering Heights, but most
>> commonly breeding the heir.
>> Go the doctor and don't bombard us on this site with your personal afflictions.
>>
>> Vikki
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:30 PM,  <infinidesadness-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The problem is that this discussion is too big to be made over email. That is why I use points 1, 2, 3 to make it shorter.
>>> So to make it very simple here it is.
>>>
>>> 1. Would I like the world to be peacefull with no violence at all? Yes. But this utopia and not about to happen any time soon
>>>
>>> 2. Would there be less crime if the punishments were more severe? Probably yes, countries like Saudi Arabia prove this.
>>>
>>> 3. Would I like to live in a country like that? No
>>>
>>> So where does that leave me? Since this threat started with th EU membership, and you mentioned Hitler, maybe the answer is this:
>>> Society changes through situations. MAny times these situations are violent. In fact 99.99% of social revolutions were violent. The EU was formed after
>>> five years of extreme violence and destruction. WW2 put an end to a thousand years of violence, and this will hopefully last forever and there will be no wars
>>> within EU members again. If it is not for us to live in a non-violent world, and if we want to create the conditions for a non-violent world in the future, we
>>> must examin all situations.
>>>
>>> like i said, this is a huge discussion that involves the nature of man (are we inherently violent through thousands of years of evolution?), morals and ethics
>>> (what is the value of human life and therefor the price of murder?), social revolution (can it be brought about by non-violent means?), and probably a few
>>> more questions i cant think of right now.
>>>
>>> as far as turkey goes, i hope you understand that i it is not personal (i.e. i dont hate every turkish person). But the fact is it is ridiculous to discuss whether
>>> a country will become a member of the EU when it is illegaly occupying another country, especially when that country is an EU member itself. In fact Cyprus and Greece are two of the few countries that really support Turkish entry into the EU because it will mean a solution to the Cyprus problem. My objection
>>> to Turkey's membership is purely based on social norms. The EU is based on citizen's rights such as equal rights to women, freedom of speech and the press
>>> and so on. How will Turkey, a country were honour killings are the norm, fit into EU society?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: 4_Re: to be or not to be a member (Infinide S)
>>>> From: freemod-AT-free.fr
>>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:51:05 +0100
>>>> To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear IS
>>>>
>>>> I don't want the free talk and free discussion to be mortgaged up to the hilt in the name of modern tolerance or mutual comprehension. It would be crazy by my side!
>>>> :-)
>>>> Then, everything you(everybody) say(s) is welcome, as well as susceptible of critique.
>>>>
>>>> Being deeply anti-religious doesn't assure anybody of that much in terms of freedom, mutual respect, positive evolution of communities.. But I am NOT deeply anti-religious for these reasons... I am not either anti-religious in any sense. As often stated in other threads, being in favor of laicity doesn't entail being against faith or religious social habits. On the contrary, laicity is the only available legal way to guarantee coexistence for ALL different religious forms and worships. To guarantee peace. Your assumption that violence is obviously justified by history and chemistry is simply echoing some violence theorists of western civilization, from Hobbes' "homo homini lupus" to XX century Hitler or Sorel commonplaces.
>>>>
>>>> I invite you to re-consider your stance reading some non-violence contributions to the peace-making processes, starting for instance from Rene Girard's critique of violence, religion and scapegoat.
>>>>
>>>> You're greek cypriot and so your resentfulness towardTurkey is quite obvious, as obviously should be possible a couple of steps beyond rancor.
>>>>
>>>> You have mentioned Oscar Wilde as ideal supporter of your viewpoint and it surprised me 'cause he was a peaceful man who sung love and harmony as few others had been able.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> FM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Il giorno 29/gen/2010, alle ore 12.22, <infinidesadness-AT-hotmail.com> <infinidesadness-AT-hotmail.com> ha scritto:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear FM,
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.as you know i'm deeply anti-religious, and my statement was to an extend directed against religious peolple who believe that it is God/Allah/Jehoveh
>>>>> who gives life, therefor only he can take it.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. As far as the weak vs strong people, I could say that it is those who are against violence who are the weak. Human history is full of violence, even in
>>>>> today's "civilised" society. I think violence is part of evolution, it is part of all dynamic/changing systems and will remain until we reach a static system. Like
>>>>> mixing two chemicals together, you get some kind of reaction until you get the finished product.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. When someone kidnaps your daughter, rapes her, and then sells her to an Arab as a sex slave, the we'll see whether you support the death penalty or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. Some people might be helped through love and kindness, but a lot of bullies are way past beyond help and need to be delt with. This includes countries.
>>>>> In the case of Turkey, a suppossedly secular country, that is violating UN resolutions, that is occupying a foreign country, and treats ethnic minorities as second
>>>>> class citizens. then proportionate force would be that the EU also treats them as second class country.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. Like Oscar Wilde said, I dont want to be a fucking weak person, a bloody hippy, someone who sees a poor person and feel guilty because I am wealthy.
>>>>> What I want is for there to be no poverty, for everyone to be wealthy.. In the same sense, I wish that there was no violence. But since there is
>>>>> violence, I dont think I should deal with it by saying "oh, your life is valuable, you are unique, we have no right to take your life away, instead we will tax the
>>>>> hard working people that you commited crimes against to keep you alive for ever in a prison". This is not what I want to say. I want to say "there is no god,
>>>>> therefor there is no afterlife, therefor there is no soul, therefor human life is not as valuable as we think, its overated. Its no more valuable than the life of a
>>>>> cow or a chicken, and it is certainly not more valuable than the planet earth that we are currently overpopulating and destroying"
>>>>>
>>>>> 6. Whatever I write in this list is no more than that. A series of words put together to make sentences. A discusion. Thoughts. And as far as I know the SI
>>>>> supported freedom of thought and discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: freemod-AT-free.fr
>>>>>> Subject: 4_Re: to be or not to be a member (Judge Dredd aka Jean Parr)
>>>>>> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 11:25:38 +0100
>>>>>> To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jean,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> as for the weakness matter, I don't know how relevant is this thread, anyway I want you to know that you misunderstood my answer to Infinide Sadness and probably due to my poor english.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just meant that to answer violence to violence, death to death, kills to kills, force to force... is not the answering manner of "strong" people... it is just an obvious sign of weakness. It is the weak answer to weak behaviors of weak minds. The strength consist in being able to break the loop of violence and reaction implicit in the mirror punishment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moreover, it should not be surprising that I am opposing this "an eye for an eye" law, since I am a modernist (in my way of course, not a pure one). What I need to emphasize here and now is the obvious consideration that the Lex Talionis (tinyurl.com/6vhbcr) is a mental law, before being a fucking primitive way of remission numbered in the old testament, the new testament, the torah and the koran too. That's why JLB - aka IO Hermes - was happily jumping when reading this infinitely sad(ness) remark that brought us back to the three monotheisms stinky horizon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I mean my view doesn't allow to consider this mirror punishment mentality (tinyurl.com/yda5roh) as something fitting the SI list. The point in fact is not merely "to be or not to be" a member of european community (as written in the thread subject line), but "to be or not to be" (a member of) the SI list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fuck records of the ancestral forms!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Free Mod
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Il giorno 29/gen/2010, alle ore 08.31, JEAN PARR ha scritto:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Weakness? We dont. in the Fourth Reich want any weakness? Has history taught you nothing?
>>>>>>> When one glorious combatant falls he will instantly be replaced by another exactly the same. The new order, FM will be driven by an emotion free Spirit of the Beehive. Instinctual weakness will be rooted out and eliminated.
>>>>>>> We will make weakness a criminal offence
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dredd
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 28/1/10, Free Mod <freemod-AT-free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Free Mod <freemod-AT-free.fr>
>>>>>>>> Subject: 2_Re: to be or not to be a member
>>>>>>>> To: "Situationist" <situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org>
>>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, 28 January, 2010, 11:24
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By use of proportionate weakness, if ever. I find
>>>>>>>> instinctual weakness in that...
>>>>>>>> a sort of revolutionaries in everyday dna cages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Il giorno 28/gen/2010, alle ore 11.22, <infinidesadness-AT-hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>> <infinidesadness-AT-hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>> ha scritto:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By use of proportionate force. I find justice in that
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 06:33:38 +0000
>>>>>>>>>> From: issostark-AT-yahoo.co.uk
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: to be or not to be a member
>>>>>>>>>> To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> OK,
>>>>>>>>>> most deal with it but I'd like to know how you
>>>>>>>> take it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --- On Wed, 27/1/10, infinidesadness-AT-hotmail.com
>>>>>>>> <infinidesadness-AT-hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: infinidesadness-AT-hotmail.com
>>>>>>>> <infinidesadness-AT-hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: to be or not to be a member
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Situationist Mail List" <situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, 27 January, 2010, 21:46
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> i give life. i can take it too
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:43:11 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>> From: issostark-AT-yahoo.co.uk
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: to be or not to be a member
>>>>>>>>>>> To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Situation Nº1:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Three Europeans must evaluate the eligibility
>>>>>>>>>>> of the Turkish request for membership in the
>>>>>>>>>>> Community.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In other words:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What is your stance on the Death Penalty
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>      ----
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      ----
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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