From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
Date: 03 Jul 2009 17:55:58 UTC   (12:55:58 PM in author's locale)
To: <situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org>

Dear Richard,



I can't see Tuttle's "performance" as anything but hostile to his audience. One can make efforts to communicate instead of haughtily jabbering above the audience's level of interest.



Who is the "admin" who wrote the piece? It's lame, except for your comments. How is Mei-Mei's "phenomenological art" any more phenomenological than any other art? If you have a clue about that, PLEASE share it with me.



Diana



> Miami Art Museum, www.miamiartmuseum.org/
> >
> Dear Richard,
>
>
>
> I printed your article to study; I'll comment on it in a later post.
>
>
>
> I reviewed a show at the Miami Dade Museum once; I think it was an exhibit of women's art, because I was reviewing for Women Artists' News then. Isn't that the building right off Flagler with the big banyan tree out front?
>
>
>
> I love Mei-Mei's poetry. The volumes she and Richard did together are stunning.
>
>
>
> I never had any success being partnered with an artist! I think one is more than enough for any family!
>
>
>
> Diana
>
> > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 09:46:20 -0700
> > From: richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com
> > Subject: Re: Magrittes Pipe
> > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> >
> > The art of propaganda -- or the art of marketing through subliminal "Memes" (Dawkins) is why we all become good readers of commercial art or non commercial art. I like the old school social realist propaganda...but then again I like a lot of genres.
> >
> > Tuttle's wife is from the NY Language poets school. I recall. I wrote something to the effect at ARTLURKER. Tom and I wrote a short article for ARTLURKER about Tuttle's talk at MAM.
> >
> > " Early in his career he described being without word or language, but later (as he likes to admit) he was influenced by his wife Mei-mei Berssenbrugge… he became a man of words, or of letters. As his work evolved in the Eighties it took on a literate perspective. As he says in so many words: “I once made art to take all the words out of the viewers mouth…to leave one speechless…now I have a foundation based on language.”
> >
> > www.artlurker.com/2009/03/richard-tuttle-lecture-at-mam/
> >
> >
> > Richard Haden
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2009 10:46:41 AM
> > Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> >
> >
> > Dear Richard,
> >
> >
> >
> > If you read Jung's Psyche and Symbol you'll find examples of how high art serves propaganda. Is the art left out of Wagner's Ring Cycle?
> >
> >
> >
> > Art when well-used provides instant access to the preconscious, bypassing the cogito. That's why art can be so dangerous in the wrong hands. You may not want to call propaganda art because of the ends it servies, but if you examine how say Hitler's propaganda ministry used the formal elements of high art you will see that art can serve evil ends.
> >
> >
> >
> > Language Poetry at its best is care for others, in that it calls attention to language, how it operates on us for good or ill by means of how it looks on a page, its music, imagery, etc., so that we do not let ourselves be affected by it without our consent.
> >
> >
> >
> > Diana
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 07:31:01 -0700
> > > From: richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com
> > > Subject: Re: Magrittes Pipe
> > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > >
> > > No, I was just talking about process--as far as the carving process goes. I suppose it is like any process that becomes so familiar until something like a blunt chisel causes one to notice it again. Yes, you can read the rest of what you thought into that short paragraph, too...but I go along with the notion that ultimately the visual or written arts have a pre-aesthetic power...or is it a pre-ontological thereness or pre-view of the primordial background that we experience first---then we build up from there.
> > >
> > > Languages's naturalness is most certainly abusable to. But then a gain that is merely manipulation or a superficiality of words or signs can be made to be so familiar again--to the point where the art is left out to serve only propaganda...maybe that is not the language I am speaking of.
> > >
> > > It is early...I usually don't start thinking until after 12. I usually work till 5 in the morning to escape the heat of south florida.
> > >
> > > Richard Haden
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2009 9:49:41 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Richard,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > When you wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Trust me, tools or chisels become transparent until they become dull then the chisel shows up again. Working a chunk of wood can be transparent as well especially when removing the outer portions that have nothing to do with the image. But as the visage takes shape the image becomes more and more opaque. As is the case lately, it is into the shape of a traumatized trash can that won't withdraw."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I thought you were commenting on contemporary art, which you seem to deplore, judging from previous comments about artists being more interested in careerism and money than care for others.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm really glad to find out that your judgement of art that "bares the device" is not so harsh as I thought it was.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Language a natural phenomenon? You mean calling the War Ministry the Defense Department is as honest an occurrence as a hyacinth in April? Or are you saying that we will always be told that we are "bringing democracy" to sovereing nations when we stage unprovoked attacks on them, so we might as well not question how government uses language to conceal its motives?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Language is used deceptively to win support for nefarious agendas. Surely you agree with that?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Diana
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 06:42:26 -0700
> > > > From: richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com
> > > > Subject: Re: Magrittes Pipe
> > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > >
> > > > I don't know why you think I throw language poetry in the trash can.. I never meant to imply that. Verbal or written language is just one form as natural phenomenon is another form. I happen to be carving a trash can at the moment...it is like a floating signifier that does not directly sign something but I will have have words for it. Of course words are or poetry or mediums are potent means of concrete meaning or should I say truth.
> > > >
> > > > Richard Haden
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2009 6:32:00 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Richard,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I take it you put Language Poetry in the trash can, along with other art forms that call attention to their media.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To disregard McLuhan's observation, "The medium is the message" is perilous. Care for others is impaired when the form, diction, appearance, sound of language is passed over in favor of content. Orwell made a great point of this when he showed how The War Department in his novel became The Ministry of Defense. Euphemisms of all kinds exemplify this deceitful practice.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Likewise in advertising of all kinds. Subtle changes in form produce different messages. A black and white photo in a perfume ad means something different than that same photo rendered with gestural brushwork in bright colors.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, tools are transparent when they are sharp. Those who know how to use language brilliantly for propaganda will bring hearts and minds over to their cause more effectively than those who don't know how to shape language's form to achieve subliminal effects.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Diana
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 09:26:33 -0700
> > > > > From: richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: Magrittes Pipe
> > > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > >
> > > > > Trust me, tools or chisels become transparent until they become dull then the chisel shows up again. Working a chunk of wood can be transparent as well especially when removing the outer portions that have nothing to do with the image. But as the visage takes shape the image becomes more and more opaque. As is the case lately, it is into the shape of a traumatized trash can that won't withdraw.
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard Haden
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 9:54:50 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Now Richard, you extol transparency of tools as if that is a good thing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Propaganda depends on language becoming so transparent to the audience that it is not questioned.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, "extraordinary rendition" it was hoped would not be questioned. All bureaucratic blurring depends on language disappearing into implied meaning. "Bringing democracy" to Iraq is another one. And so it goes.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Diana
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:24:54 -0700
> > > > > > From: richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Magrittes Pipe
> > > > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I like the fish story scene in the excerpt below. It is almost a perfect description of Heidegger's "ready to hand" ...how equipment becomes so familiar it withdraws (becomes transparent in use) as is the case with the fish disappearing from the plate...the character can't remember if he ate it or not. That happens to me with food lately, I keep forgetting where I leave the plate...my dogs count on it. They aren't versed in Heideggarian existential strategies, they are merely dogs-- just thieves like the woman with the Tartan handbag.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, the handlers will work it out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > www.booksellerworld.com/lecarre-naivesentimental.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Back to the POD Cast
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Richard Haden
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: JEAN PARR <jeanparr-AT-btinternet.com>
> > > > > > To: Situationist <situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 1:01:43 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Magrittes Pipe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Funny you should say that. Theres a little known novel by John Le Carre "The Naive and Sentimental Lover" and my handlers recommend it to your handlers
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Psycho "They stole his mind, now he wants it back" Mantis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Wed, 1/7/09, richard haden <richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: richard haden <richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Magrittes Pipe
> > > > > > To: "Situationist" <situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org>
> > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009, 1:25 AM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Green which you mean pipe dream time?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sounds like you need somewhere new to live. Ask your handlers to talk to my handlers about new digs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Richard
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: JEAN PARR <jeanparr-AT-btinternet.com>
> > > > > > To: Situationist <situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:20:59 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Magrittes Pipe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Richard
> > > > > > What time is it in Miami let me guess around 1830 ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Wed, 1/7/09, richard haden <richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: richard haden <richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Magrittes Pipe
> > > > > > To: "Situationist" <situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org>
> > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009, 12:42 AM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pipe dreams.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > RH
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: JEAN PARR <jeanparr-AT-btinternet.com>
> > > > > > To: Situationist <situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 7:08:18 PM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah? Oh really? Only this no ordinary fucking pipe, cock suckers. It is not' very definitely not any old pipe. Not the indefinite fucking article. Any french schoolkid will tell you that this is the pipe that is in the elementary primaire reading book and has been since time began in the education world with the Code Napoleon.
> > > > > > Thats the whole point about this painting, its about signifiers and everyone humming off the same hymn sheet. Its the pictorial equivalent of being an Arsenal supporter. You suffer for your art. Your game. Your language. Ironically the pipe is about language itself. Notice the definite article.
> > > > > > Well at least the fucking French got something right as well as the fucking Spectacle.
> > > > > > Thank you Napoleon for enabling French kids to learn to read.
> > > > > > And as for Britain, its a shame the Luftwaffe didnt finish the job off properly. Tony Blair
> > > > > > "education education education" Yeah? Big deal. Theres hardly any kids in this myopic fucking country can speak a foreign language.
> > > > > > Its twelve hours later and Im still unglued. Must be something they put in the drinking water.
> > > > > > Oh yeah and theres one more thing. Dada started in Transylvania, in Budapest not Russia
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > > > > Subject: RE: Mind/body dualism
> > > > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 2:36 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Richard,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your distinction between language as transparent sign referring to ontic realities, and language as an ontic reality in itself describes the modernist program in a nutshell.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When the Russian Formalists insisted that modern art "bare the device," that is, declare the ontic reality of the medium itself in a non-referential manner, they in effect invented Dada ("This is not a pipe" as the title of a painting of a pipe"), collage, Jackson Pollock's drip paintings, Ezra Pound's cantos and Language Poetry, among other modernist styles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Art that is not useful (your term) is a thing-in-itself, shapes on the page, sounds in the ear, sculpted material, paint on a canvas, that refers to nothing outside itself. Paradoxically (and of course all transcendent truth is paradoxical), Jackson Pollock's paintings stand as incontrovertible proof of the artist's total identity with the medium. Pollock, paint's viscosity affected by gravity and the arm's fulcrum are one. Consciousness is not apart watching the paint and the artist's body behave.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Beckett describes this momentary transcendence of the self/world dialectic in his novel Watt, when Watt and Mr. Knott (What, Not) become indistinguishable. Beckett's achievement in that novel is generally regarded as his ability to turn epistemological questions into narrative. How can we know ourselves primordially (in Zen, "What was your face before you were born?")? What is prelapsarian epistemology? Funnily enough, some characters in the novel bear the scars they got from falls.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What Beckett did in his novels, Pollock did in his great drip paintings. That is, offer proof of momentary return to Eden.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Useful language is post-lapsarian, a tool in the world man has dominion over.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In describing time's simultaneity, quantum physics moves into consciousness research. When you write:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "At my level, it seems that what ever we experience is recorded in our mind...since it is a physical recording in real substance of mind, we can always experience that recording as though it were live. But the ability to precede representation is what we do well, or perhaps that is the wellness of living directly."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You put the subject in the center in a kind of Copernican view of consciousness. Quantum physics says our sense of time is a fiction created by the belief in self as an accurate measure of time. The mind sees events passing by it in temporal sequence. In actuality, events that have happened and will have happened are not different from events happening now. It's as if a wind blowing up a storm in Texas is said in Louisiana to be in the past, when in fact it's only in the past in Louisiana but still extant in Texas.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Events passing through your mind are chronological only in your mind. Michio Kaku says there are dinosaurs in the living room, only we can't see them!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Diana
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:57:22 -0700
> > > > > > > From: richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Mind/body dualism
> > > > > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Diana,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Wittgenstein said there is nothing left for philosophy to study but language." Yes, that may read simplistic to some. But what is language? It is certainly more than written or spoken words, or phonemes or abstract marks on a page...language is what the whole world rolls over our senses...what the outer world projects onto our sensibilities from which we form the intelligible or the the profound unintelligible...But then in the case of a art, the worlds projected language may be that of a primordial projection--that which reminds us of the difference between the thing (word or object) in its opacity as forever disclosing and remaining in itself in a constant rift of estrangement between the thing and the natural world......we experience language prior to representation. Language also has a tremendous naming power.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course there are many ways to look at arts usefulness. To some, art has strategies that are far more clear and more referential...ie political art and so on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > QM? "Einstein's theories describe the large world and QM describes the subatomic world, they are not separate but intimately connected.." I go along with that, but those theories or laws of nature found through the access or the practice of Physics...it has exposed a robust realism-- like laws of Gravity- which take place without our ability to effect them.. None of that physics has to do with consciousness or our ability to take a stand on our own being--we effect that stand alongside the physics of the world. However we effect our being in that physics of ontics by being outside the limits of Aristotle's idea that we are just a necessary part of nature. For as we know, contrary to Aristotle, nature goes on with or without us.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can't see how experience is already a done deal>>>"all experience exists simultaneously"? If you are referring to multidimensional realities, or simultaneous universes that share molecular particles then perhaps there is the illusion of experience being related in multiple planes of existence...however, all that talk is over my head. At my level, it seems that what ever we experience is recorded in our mind...since it is a physical recording in real substance of mind, we can always experience that recording as though it were live. But the ability to precede representation is what we do well, or perhaps that is the wellness of living directly..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard Haden
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:34:26 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: RE: Mind/body dualism
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard, rigid boundaries between disciplines is so.....academic! I don't see how it is possible to think in purely scientific terms unless the thoughts are produced by AI. Human beings have a tendency to connect atomic physics with bombs dropped on schoolchildren.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Much of the work of theology and philosophy has been taken over by QM for example. We now call God the Big Bang. Any philosophy still abiding by Newton's laws is a bit outré wouldn't you say?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Einstein's discoveries affected every academic field, especially philosophy. Wittgenstein said there is nothing left for philosophy to study but language.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Quantum physics would have been impossible without relativity.. While it's true that Einstein's theories describe the large world and QM describes the subatomic world, they are not separate but intimately connected.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And quantum physics has quite a lot to say about experience in time. For example, that past experience is past only in our minds; in actuality all experience exists simultaneously.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How would you categorize Bergson's work with time as durée, or duration? Philosophical? He described experienced time probably better than anyone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Diana,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But if we are thinking in purely scientific terms we navigate more in science and less in philosophy...Einstein's science has to do physics and the relative relation of matter or objects in that science of physical space than with time in that....Einstein doesn't prove that thought is relative to being in space. It is quite a claim to say that Einstein is a better philosopher than those who take up the study of being, starting with Heidegger, continuing with others like Blattner, Derrida and so on--who add more weight to experience in time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Richard Haden
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 7:49:05 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: Mind/body dualism
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dear Richard,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As everyone has known since Einstein said it and it was proved by empirical observation, space and time are not separate entities. To engage in those categories one must employ the taxonomical fallacy. Call it spacetime or timespace, but not space and time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Diana----
> > > > > > > > Message sent by the Situationist list.
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe situationist" in the body of a message
> > > > > > > > to requests-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > > Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
> > > > > > > windowslive.com/explore----
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> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.
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