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RE: Magrittes Pipe
Dear Diana
Hmm. There is something that I have inadequately explained. Im having a failure experience. I think that artists intention is dodgy ground as you say. Intention is a word that crops up when Teach wants an essay on Shakespeare or Pound. Its really crummy isnt it? What do you think is the artists intention in....it makes you want to fail the exam on purpose and start with the words
Gimme a break willya. The word intention brings out the Holden Caulfield in me. Im sure that strikes a chord with you.
Im not sure what to do with Magrittes pipe which is itself an accurate representation of the pipe in the schoolbook that all french kids who were in class CE 1 in the fifties are familiar with. Except that the legend in the schoolbook under the illustration reads
Ceci est une pipe. I still wouldnt like to hazard about intention. Theres something universal there, but the relation between subject and object is a one way traffic. And thats the problem, theres no reciprocity that I can perceive. Its a one way valve then.
Fragonard eh? Alright for some. Come across Angelica Kaufmann? Shes the same period.
You can just see her. The boys are having all the fun. I wanna do that. And she did.
Jean
--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
Date: Thursday, 2 July, 2009, 11:47 AM
Dear Jean,
As I said earlier, unless we want to fall into the intentional fallacy, we should not assert an artist's intentions. Very often an artist produces a manifesto or an ars poetica that bears little relation to what the artist produces. But to say that the audience knows more about the artistic intent than the artist is to claim clairvoyance.
However. When a painting of a cat, say, bears the title "This is not a cat" the truth of the title requires no ESP to discern. It's not a cat.
Again, pipes were not the issue, nor were theories of aesthetics. The content of Magritte's picture is a warning not to react to images as if they are the real thing. Where is this a dangerous practice? Recall that Magritte and other artists at that time were reacting to the slaughters of WWI. Pageantry, parades, hauling out national symbols, flags, slogans, all of that was used for to stir up nationalistic feelings in support of the war. Magritte might have painted a picture of the French flag, as Jaspar Johns did some generations later in America, and titled it "This is not France." He was warning the audience, alerting them to the great gap between object and its representation.
Pop artists like Warhol and Johns have more political content than is usually admitted. In addition, Warhol especially challenged the connoiseur's love of virtuousity in art -- an artist's ability to "fool the eye" by painting velvet and flesh that look real, for example. He was challenging the "precious object" attitude to art, paintings in gold frames. Warhol flaunted the relative lack of skill it takes to turn out silk screen images; almost anyone can do it with a little practice.
When you think of the Fragonard paintings so treasured by the French aristocracy, with their brilliantly painted flashing satins and rosy cheeks, you'll get a sense of the class consciousness Warhol's art displays.
Diana
> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 17:47:07 +0000
> From: jeanparr-AT-btinternet.com
> Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
>
> Dear Diana
>
> I think Magrittes intention was to shock. It certainly worked what with he telling you the opposite of what your infant language learning material tells you.
> But anger arousal? Youre probably right though Id be slow to admit it. The ability to arouse anger I mean
> The effect? A bit like being tipped out of your pram onto the pavement.
> You have to be boulversee otherwise it wouldnt be Surrealism. We are used to having Dada inspired stuff thrown at us by advertisers for decades now. But you stand in front of one of these in a sale room and the impact is huge.
> I think Warhol was a bastard like Heidegger, but a truly great artist. What did they do with the Factory? Was it mothballed or did it revert to something different?
> In the light of 9/11 the Empire State film is a great majestic work. I cant remember the technical stuff ( Im an ex film editor) but youre looking at lots of 1000 foot mags. Im going to find out what I can about this, I just got inspired
>
> --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> Date: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009, 2:32 PM
>
>
>
> Dear Jean,
>
>
>
> Well Magritte certainly exercised your anger! I'm sure that was his intention.
>
>
>
> Why a simple assertion that a picture of a pipe is not a pipe should be so controversial is a mystery to me.
>
>
>
> Diana
>
>
>
> .
>
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:08:18 +0000
> > From: jeanparr-AT-btinternet.com
> > Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> >
> > Yeah? Oh really? Only this no ordinary fucking pipe, cock suckers. It is not' very definitely not any old pipe. Not the indefinite fucking article.. Any french schoolkid will tell you that this is the pipe that is in the elementary primaire reading book and has been since time began in the education world with the Code Napoleon.
> > Thats the whole point about this painting, its about signifiers and everyone humming off the same hymn sheet. Its the pictorial equivalent of being an Arsenal supporter. You suffer for your art. Your game. Your language. Ironically the pipe is about language itself. Notice the definite article.
> > Well at least the fucking French got something right as well as the fucking Spectacle.
> > Thank you Napoleon for enabling French kids to learn to read.
> > And as for Britain, its a shame the Luftwaffe didnt finish the job off properly. Tony Blair
> > "education education education" Yeah? Big deal. Theres hardly any kids in this myopic fucking country can speak a foreign language.
> > Its twelve hours later and Im still unglued. Must be something they put in the drinking water.
> > Oh yeah and theres one more thing. Dada started in Transylvania, in Budapest not Russia
> >
> > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > Subject: RE: Mind/body dualism
> > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > Date: Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 2:36 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Richard,
> >
> >
> >
> > Your distinction between language as transparent sign referring to ontic realities, and language as an ontic reality in itself describes the modernist program in a nutshell.
> >
> >
> >
> > When the Russian Formalists insisted that modern art "bare the device," that is, declare the ontic reality of the medium itself in a non-referential manner, they in effect invented Dada ("This is not a pipe" as the title of a painting of a pipe"), collage, Jackson Pollock's drip paintings, Ezra Pound's cantos and Language Poetry, among other modernist styles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Art that is not useful (your term) is a thing-in-itself, shapes on the page, sounds in the ear, sculpted material, paint on a canvas, that refers to nothing outside itself. Paradoxically (and of course all transcendent truth is paradoxical), Jackson Pollock's paintings stand as incontrovertible proof of the artist's total identity with the medium. Pollock, paint's viscosity affected by gravity and the arm's fulcrum are one. Consciousness is not apart watching the paint and the artist's body behave.
> >
> >
> >
> > Beckett describes this momentary transcendence of the self/world dialectic in his novel Watt, when Watt and Mr. Knott (What, Not) become indistinguishable. Beckett's achievement in that novel is generally regarded as his ability to turn epistemological questions into narrative. How can we know ourselves primordially (in Zen, "What was your face before you were born?")? What is prelapsarian epistemology? Funnily enough, some characters in the novel bear the scars they got from falls.
> >
> >
> >
> > What Beckett did in his novels, Pollock did in his great drip paintings.. That is, offer proof of momentary return to Eden.
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful language is post-lapsarian, a tool in the world man has dominion over.
> >
> >
> >
> > In describing time's simultaneity, quantum physics moves into consciousness research. When you write:
> >
> >
> >
> > "At my level, it seems that what ever we experience is recorded in our mind...since it is a physical recording in real substance of mind, we can always experience that recording as though it were live. But the ability to precede representation is what we do well, or perhaps that is the wellness of living directly."
> >
> >
> >
> > You put the subject in the center in a kind of Copernican view of consciousness. Quantum physics says our sense of time is a fiction created by the belief in self as an accurate measure of time. The mind sees events passing by it in temporal sequence. In actuality, events that have happened and will have happened are not different from events happening now. It's as if a wind blowing up a storm in Texas is said in Louisiana to be in the past, when in fact it's only in the past in Louisiana but still extant in Texas.
> >
> >
> >
> > Events passing through your mind are chronological only in your mind. Michio Kaku says there are dinosaurs in the living room, only we can't see them!
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >
> >
> > Diana
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:57:22 -0700
> > > From: richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com
> > > Subject: Re: Mind/body dualism
> > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > >
> > > Diana,
> > >
> > > "Wittgenstein said there is nothing left for philosophy to study but language." Yes, that may read simplistic to some. But what is language? It is certainly more than written or spoken words, or phonemes or abstract marks on a page...language is what the whole world rolls over our senses...what the outer world projects onto our sensibilities from which we form the intelligible or the the profound unintelligible...But then in the case of a art, the worlds projected language may be that of a primordial projection--that which reminds us of the difference between the thing (word or object) in its opacity as forever disclosing and remaining in itself in a constant rift of estrangement between the thing and the natural world.....we experience language prior to representation. Language also has a tremendous naming power.
> > >
> > > Of course there are many ways to look at arts usefulness. To some, art has strategies that are far more clear and more referential...ie political art and so on.
> > >
> > > QM? "Einstein's theories describe the large world and QM describes the subatomic world, they are not separate but intimately connected." I go along with that, but those theories or laws of nature found through the access or the practice of Physics...it has exposed a robust realism-- like laws of Gravity- which take place without our ability to effect them. None of that physics has to do with consciousness or our ability to take a stand on our own being--we effect that stand alongside the physics of the world. However we effect our being in that physics of ontics by being outside the limits of Aristotle's idea that we are just a necessary part of nature. For as we know, contrary to Aristotle, nature goes on with or without us.
> > >
> > > I can't see how experience is already a done deal>>>"all experience exists simultaneously"? If you are referring to multidimensional realities, or simultaneous universes that share molecular particles then perhaps there is the illusion of experience being related in multiple planes of existence...however, all that talk is over my head. At my level, it seems that what ever we experience is recorded in our mind...since it is a physical recording in real substance of mind, we can always experience that recording as though it were live. But the ability to precede representation is what we do well, or perhaps that is the wellness of living directly.
> > >
> > > Richard Haden
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:34:26 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Mind/body dualism
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Richard, rigid boundaries between disciplines is so.....academic! I don't see how it is possible to think in purely scientific terms unless the thoughts are produced by AI. Human beings have a tendency to connect atomic physics with bombs dropped on schoolchildren.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Much of the work of theology and philosophy has been taken over by QM for example. We now call God the Big Bang. Any philosophy still abiding by Newton's laws is a bit outré wouldn't you say?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Einstein's discoveries affected every academic field, especially philosophy. Wittgenstein said there is nothing left for philosophy to study but language.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Quantum physics would have been impossible without relativity. While it's true that Einstein's theories describe the large world and QM describes the subatomic world, they are not separate but intimately connected.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And quantum physics has quite a lot to say about experience in time. For example, that past experience is past only in our minds; in actuality all experience exists simultaneously.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > How would you categorize Bergson's work with time as durée, or duration? Philosophical? He described experienced time probably better than anyone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Diana,
> > > >
> > > > But if we are thinking in purely scientific terms we navigate more in science and less in philosophy...Einstein's science has to do physics and the relative relation of matter or objects in that science of physical space than with time in that....Einstein doesn't prove that thought is relative to being in space. It is quite a claim to say that Einstein is a better philosopher than those who take up the study of being, starting with Heidegger, continuing with others like Blattner, Derrida and so on--who add more weight to experience in time.
> > > >
> > > > Richard Haden
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 7:49:05 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: Mind/body dualism
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Richard,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As everyone has known since Einstein said it and it was proved by empirical observation, space and time are not separate entities. To engage in those categories one must employ the taxonomical fallacy. Call it spacetime or timespace, but not space and time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Diana----
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
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Hmm. There is something that I have inadequately explained. Im having a failure experience. I think that artists intention is dodgy ground as you say. Intention is a word that crops up when Teach wants an essay on Shakespeare or Pound. Its really crummy isnt it? What do you think is the artists intention in....it makes you want to fail the exam on purpose and start with the words
Gimme a break willya. The word intention brings out the Holden Caulfield in me. Im sure that strikes a chord with you.
Im not sure what to do with Magrittes pipe which is itself an accurate representation of the pipe in the schoolbook that all french kids who were in class CE 1 in the fifties are familiar with. Except that the legend in the schoolbook under the illustration reads
Ceci est une pipe. I still wouldnt like to hazard about intention. Theres something universal there, but the relation between subject and object is a one way traffic. And thats the problem, theres no reciprocity that I can perceive. Its a one way valve then.
Fragonard eh? Alright for some. Come across Angelica Kaufmann? Shes the same period.
You can just see her. The boys are having all the fun. I wanna do that. And she did.
Jean
--- On Thu, 2/7/09, Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
Date: Thursday, 2 July, 2009, 11:47 AM
Dear Jean,
As I said earlier, unless we want to fall into the intentional fallacy, we should not assert an artist's intentions. Very often an artist produces a manifesto or an ars poetica that bears little relation to what the artist produces. But to say that the audience knows more about the artistic intent than the artist is to claim clairvoyance.
However. When a painting of a cat, say, bears the title "This is not a cat" the truth of the title requires no ESP to discern. It's not a cat.
Again, pipes were not the issue, nor were theories of aesthetics. The content of Magritte's picture is a warning not to react to images as if they are the real thing. Where is this a dangerous practice? Recall that Magritte and other artists at that time were reacting to the slaughters of WWI. Pageantry, parades, hauling out national symbols, flags, slogans, all of that was used for to stir up nationalistic feelings in support of the war. Magritte might have painted a picture of the French flag, as Jaspar Johns did some generations later in America, and titled it "This is not France." He was warning the audience, alerting them to the great gap between object and its representation.
Pop artists like Warhol and Johns have more political content than is usually admitted. In addition, Warhol especially challenged the connoiseur's love of virtuousity in art -- an artist's ability to "fool the eye" by painting velvet and flesh that look real, for example. He was challenging the "precious object" attitude to art, paintings in gold frames. Warhol flaunted the relative lack of skill it takes to turn out silk screen images; almost anyone can do it with a little practice.
When you think of the Fragonard paintings so treasured by the French aristocracy, with their brilliantly painted flashing satins and rosy cheeks, you'll get a sense of the class consciousness Warhol's art displays.
Diana
> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 17:47:07 +0000
> From: jeanparr-AT-btinternet.com
> Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
>
> Dear Diana
>
> I think Magrittes intention was to shock. It certainly worked what with he telling you the opposite of what your infant language learning material tells you.
> But anger arousal? Youre probably right though Id be slow to admit it. The ability to arouse anger I mean
> The effect? A bit like being tipped out of your pram onto the pavement.
> You have to be boulversee otherwise it wouldnt be Surrealism. We are used to having Dada inspired stuff thrown at us by advertisers for decades now. But you stand in front of one of these in a sale room and the impact is huge.
> I think Warhol was a bastard like Heidegger, but a truly great artist. What did they do with the Factory? Was it mothballed or did it revert to something different?
> In the light of 9/11 the Empire State film is a great majestic work. I cant remember the technical stuff ( Im an ex film editor) but youre looking at lots of 1000 foot mags. Im going to find out what I can about this, I just got inspired
>
> --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> Date: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009, 2:32 PM
>
>
>
> Dear Jean,
>
>
>
> Well Magritte certainly exercised your anger! I'm sure that was his intention.
>
>
>
> Why a simple assertion that a picture of a pipe is not a pipe should be so controversial is a mystery to me.
>
>
>
> Diana
>
>
>
> .
>
> > Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:08:18 +0000
> > From: jeanparr-AT-btinternet.com
> > Subject: RE: Magrittes Pipe
> > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> >
> > Yeah? Oh really? Only this no ordinary fucking pipe, cock suckers. It is not' very definitely not any old pipe. Not the indefinite fucking article.. Any french schoolkid will tell you that this is the pipe that is in the elementary primaire reading book and has been since time began in the education world with the Code Napoleon.
> > Thats the whole point about this painting, its about signifiers and everyone humming off the same hymn sheet. Its the pictorial equivalent of being an Arsenal supporter. You suffer for your art. Your game. Your language. Ironically the pipe is about language itself. Notice the definite article.
> > Well at least the fucking French got something right as well as the fucking Spectacle.
> > Thank you Napoleon for enabling French kids to learn to read.
> > And as for Britain, its a shame the Luftwaffe didnt finish the job off properly. Tony Blair
> > "education education education" Yeah? Big deal. Theres hardly any kids in this myopic fucking country can speak a foreign language.
> > Its twelve hours later and Im still unglued. Must be something they put in the drinking water.
> > Oh yeah and theres one more thing. Dada started in Transylvania, in Budapest not Russia
> >
> > --- On Tue, 30/6/09, Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > Subject: RE: Mind/body dualism
> > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > Date: Tuesday, 30 June, 2009, 2:36 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Richard,
> >
> >
> >
> > Your distinction between language as transparent sign referring to ontic realities, and language as an ontic reality in itself describes the modernist program in a nutshell.
> >
> >
> >
> > When the Russian Formalists insisted that modern art "bare the device," that is, declare the ontic reality of the medium itself in a non-referential manner, they in effect invented Dada ("This is not a pipe" as the title of a painting of a pipe"), collage, Jackson Pollock's drip paintings, Ezra Pound's cantos and Language Poetry, among other modernist styles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Art that is not useful (your term) is a thing-in-itself, shapes on the page, sounds in the ear, sculpted material, paint on a canvas, that refers to nothing outside itself. Paradoxically (and of course all transcendent truth is paradoxical), Jackson Pollock's paintings stand as incontrovertible proof of the artist's total identity with the medium. Pollock, paint's viscosity affected by gravity and the arm's fulcrum are one. Consciousness is not apart watching the paint and the artist's body behave.
> >
> >
> >
> > Beckett describes this momentary transcendence of the self/world dialectic in his novel Watt, when Watt and Mr. Knott (What, Not) become indistinguishable. Beckett's achievement in that novel is generally regarded as his ability to turn epistemological questions into narrative. How can we know ourselves primordially (in Zen, "What was your face before you were born?")? What is prelapsarian epistemology? Funnily enough, some characters in the novel bear the scars they got from falls.
> >
> >
> >
> > What Beckett did in his novels, Pollock did in his great drip paintings.. That is, offer proof of momentary return to Eden.
> >
> >
> >
> > Useful language is post-lapsarian, a tool in the world man has dominion over.
> >
> >
> >
> > In describing time's simultaneity, quantum physics moves into consciousness research. When you write:
> >
> >
> >
> > "At my level, it seems that what ever we experience is recorded in our mind...since it is a physical recording in real substance of mind, we can always experience that recording as though it were live. But the ability to precede representation is what we do well, or perhaps that is the wellness of living directly."
> >
> >
> >
> > You put the subject in the center in a kind of Copernican view of consciousness. Quantum physics says our sense of time is a fiction created by the belief in self as an accurate measure of time. The mind sees events passing by it in temporal sequence. In actuality, events that have happened and will have happened are not different from events happening now. It's as if a wind blowing up a storm in Texas is said in Louisiana to be in the past, when in fact it's only in the past in Louisiana but still extant in Texas.
> >
> >
> >
> > Events passing through your mind are chronological only in your mind. Michio Kaku says there are dinosaurs in the living room, only we can't see them!
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >
> >
> > Diana
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:57:22 -0700
> > > From: richard_haden-AT-yahoo.com
> > > Subject: Re: Mind/body dualism
> > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > >
> > > Diana,
> > >
> > > "Wittgenstein said there is nothing left for philosophy to study but language." Yes, that may read simplistic to some. But what is language? It is certainly more than written or spoken words, or phonemes or abstract marks on a page...language is what the whole world rolls over our senses...what the outer world projects onto our sensibilities from which we form the intelligible or the the profound unintelligible...But then in the case of a art, the worlds projected language may be that of a primordial projection--that which reminds us of the difference between the thing (word or object) in its opacity as forever disclosing and remaining in itself in a constant rift of estrangement between the thing and the natural world.....we experience language prior to representation. Language also has a tremendous naming power.
> > >
> > > Of course there are many ways to look at arts usefulness. To some, art has strategies that are far more clear and more referential...ie political art and so on.
> > >
> > > QM? "Einstein's theories describe the large world and QM describes the subatomic world, they are not separate but intimately connected." I go along with that, but those theories or laws of nature found through the access or the practice of Physics...it has exposed a robust realism-- like laws of Gravity- which take place without our ability to effect them. None of that physics has to do with consciousness or our ability to take a stand on our own being--we effect that stand alongside the physics of the world. However we effect our being in that physics of ontics by being outside the limits of Aristotle's idea that we are just a necessary part of nature. For as we know, contrary to Aristotle, nature goes on with or without us.
> > >
> > > I can't see how experience is already a done deal>>>"all experience exists simultaneously"? If you are referring to multidimensional realities, or simultaneous universes that share molecular particles then perhaps there is the illusion of experience being related in multiple planes of existence...however, all that talk is over my head. At my level, it seems that what ever we experience is recorded in our mind...since it is a physical recording in real substance of mind, we can always experience that recording as though it were live. But the ability to precede representation is what we do well, or perhaps that is the wellness of living directly.
> > >
> > > Richard Haden
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 10:34:26 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Mind/body dualism
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Richard, rigid boundaries between disciplines is so.....academic! I don't see how it is possible to think in purely scientific terms unless the thoughts are produced by AI. Human beings have a tendency to connect atomic physics with bombs dropped on schoolchildren.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Much of the work of theology and philosophy has been taken over by QM for example. We now call God the Big Bang. Any philosophy still abiding by Newton's laws is a bit outré wouldn't you say?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Einstein's discoveries affected every academic field, especially philosophy. Wittgenstein said there is nothing left for philosophy to study but language.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Quantum physics would have been impossible without relativity. While it's true that Einstein's theories describe the large world and QM describes the subatomic world, they are not separate but intimately connected.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And quantum physics has quite a lot to say about experience in time. For example, that past experience is past only in our minds; in actuality all experience exists simultaneously.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > How would you categorize Bergson's work with time as durée, or duration? Philosophical? He described experienced time probably better than anyone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Diana,
> > > >
> > > > But if we are thinking in purely scientific terms we navigate more in science and less in philosophy...Einstein's science has to do physics and the relative relation of matter or objects in that science of physical space than with time in that....Einstein doesn't prove that thought is relative to being in space. It is quite a claim to say that Einstein is a better philosopher than those who take up the study of being, starting with Heidegger, continuing with others like Blattner, Derrida and so on--who add more weight to experience in time.
> > > >
> > > > Richard Haden
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Diana Manister <dmanister-AT-hotmail.com>
> > > > To: situationist-AT-lists.nothingness.org
> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 7:49:05 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: Mind/body dualism
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dear Richard,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As everyone has known since Einstein said it and it was proved by empirical observation, space and time are not separate entities. To engage in those categories one must employ the taxonomical fallacy. Call it spacetime or timespace, but not space and time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Diana----
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> > >
> > >
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